Thanks Blondie! I actually wish I was at the WT Study today. I am sure that by the time paragraphs 13 and 14 roll around, no one will know what hit them because their minds will already be tied in knots.
Ultimate Reality
JoinedPosts by Ultimate Reality
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32
Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 06-13-10 WT Study (HOLY SPIRIT)
by blondie incomments you will not hear at the 06-13-10 wt study (april 15, 2010, pages 7-11 (purpose).
as we have seen, jehovah used his spirit in the past to protect individuals as well as the nation of israel as a whole.
why doesnt god protect individuals today?.
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How do you answer to the "new light" excuse?
by XPeterX inwhen a jw uses proverbs 4:18 what can you say to prove that he's wrong?.
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Ultimate Reality
Coffee is right. This is easy to address, there is no way to scripturally defend the 'new light' concept.
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Twisting Scripture vs A Literal Reading
by AllTimeJeff inknowing that passions run deep on this matter, i have what i believe to be a very simple premise for a discussion of how to read the bible.. terry has labored over the last couple of months to demonstrate (in my view, conclusively) that the bible is far from unaltered, and often mistranslated.
these facts, inconvenient as they might be for believers, are nonetheless, a problem for those who claim that the bible is the word of god.. this is not what i wish to discuss... rather..... jehovah's witnesses come from a tradition of "reading in" or "adding meaning" to the scriptures.
no one jw outside of the governing body is allowed to do this.. but why is it necesarry?.
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Ultimate Reality
How to read ancient texts, including the Bible, is the subject of many commentaries. For instance, should we read the Mosaic law internally? In other words, as if we were an Israelite, in order to get the clearest meaning. Or externally, with a close-reading and critical analysis of virtually every word?
What has cleared up the meaning of many Biblical verses for me is to perform more an internal, literal reading and determine (as best we know) who wrote it, when it was written, and to whom. This does not mean ignoring symbolism or metaphors, obviously.
The literal approach means abandoning the Society's favorite interpretive reading: parallel dispensations. The idea that the Bible contains double-meanings and secondary, larger fulfillments is unsupported scripturally and has led to one failed interpretation after another.
As an example of how understanding the historical context can impact a literal reading, Christendom determined that Revelation was written in 96CE. The Society also has adopted this view which is largely based on ambiguous comments made by Ireneaus. However, many scholars feel a pre-70CE dating is more accurate and, when the bulk of Revelation is applied to the events concluding the Jewish system, it presents a much clearer interpretation than the Society's non-sense. The same would be true of Matthew 24; one single application in the 1st century.
Whether or not one puts faith in the Bible is a different matter. But few even attempt to take an exegetical approach and seem to be looking for a hidden message about the near-future, and somehow they always find it because, they think, God has granted them special wisdom.
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Jesus is NOT the mediator for all?
by Ultimate Reality inthe current interpretation of the watchtower society is that christs role as mediator applies only to a small group of individuals - the 144,000. the assumption is that since the new covenant applies to their roles and kings and priests, jesus mediates between them and jehovah god, while those with an earthly hope are often described as beneficiaries of this arrangement.
for more information on this, see jwfacts.com.
there is some shifty reasoning used by the society to justify their view that christ actually mediates for fewer people than moses:.
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Ultimate Reality
The current interpretation of the Watchtower Society is that Christ’s role as mediator applies only to a small group of individuals - the 144,000. The assumption is that since the new covenant applies to their roles and kings and priests, Jesus’ mediates between them and Jehovah God, while those with an earthly hope are often described as ‘beneficiaries’ of this arrangement. For more information on this, see jwfacts.com
There is some shifty reasoning used by the Society to justify their view that Christ actually mediates for fewer people than Moses:
The Watchtower of November 15, 1979, page 26, made this comment:
“What, then, is Christ’s role in this program of salvation? Paul proceeds to say: “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men [not, all men], a man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all.”—1 Tim. 2:5, 6.
The insertion "[not, all men]" is the Society blatantly changing the meaning of the Bible.
This question was raised again in a 1989 Questions From Readers (w 8/15/89 p 30-31):
“Is Jesus the Mediator only for spirit-anointed Christians or for all mankind, since 1 Timothy 2:5, 6 speaks of him as the “mediator” who “gave himself a corresponding ransom for all”?”
The Watchtower answer to this question on the mediator centers on the following legal concept:
“The Greek word me·si′tes, used for “mediator,” means ‘one who finds himself between two bodies or parties.’ It was a ‘many-sided technical term of Hellenistic legal language.’ Professor Albrecht Oepke (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament) says that me·si′tes was “one of the most varied technical terms in the vocabulary of Hellen[istic] law. ” (w 8/15/89 p 30-31)
So, it is a "many-sided technical" term. But they never bother to define what it means! Nor do they cite the source.
However, after some searching you'll find comment was taken from the 1967 edition of the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. Notice what this dictionary stated on page 588 (1985 edition) regarding 1 Timothy 2:5, 6:
“In 1 Tim. 2:5-6 we find a Christianized use. The one God wills that all people be saved, and there is one Mediator representing God to them and them to God, i.e., Christ Jesus in his sacrificial death.”
Beginning to see a difference in how mediator should be defined?
Professor Jerome H. Neyrey, Ph.D. (Yale University), a professor of New Testament Studies at the University of Notre Dame, made the following comments on Oepke’s definition:
Writing on "mediator" in 1967, Albert Oepke identified the following social roles in the ancient world that exemplify the role of broker or mediator. A mesites is a person who (I) is "neutral" to two parties and negotiates peace or guarantees agreements, (2) arranges business deals, (3) receives as king divine laws and offers sacrifice for the people, (4) offers as priest prayers and sacrifice to God on behalf of individuals and the people, (5) brings as prophet a teaching or mighty work from God, (6) founds a new cult or religion, and (7) delivers as angel communication from God.
As Oepke also notes, the New Testament calls Jesus a broker in many ways: he is the unique mediator between the one God and humankind (1 Tim 2:5), the mediator of the new covenant (Heb 8:6; 9:15; 12:24) and a "priest according to the order of Melchizedek" (Heb 5:6; 6:20; 7:17). In contrast to the Levitical priesthood, Jesus' priesthood/brokerage is vastly superior because Jesus "is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them" (Heb 7:25). - Worship in the fourth gospel: a cultural interpretation of John 14-17 -- Part II
Finally, to put this legal word business to rest, here is how should we legally define the word mediator as used by Paul:
“[Paul] calls him the mediator, the mesities. Mesities comes from mesos, which, in this case, means in the middle. A mesities is, therefore, one who stands in the middle between two people and brings them together. When Job is desperately anxious that somehow he should be able to put his case to God, he cries out hopelessly: 'There is no umpire [mesities] between us' (Job 9:33). Paul calls Moses the mesities (Galations 3;19) in that he was the one between, who brought the law from God to the people. In Athens in classical times, there was a body of men - all citizens in their sixtieth year - who could be called upon to act as mediators when there was a dispute between two citizens, and their first duty was to bring about a reconciliation. In Rome, there were arbitri. The judge settled points of law; but the arbitri settled matters of what was fair and just; and it was their duty to bring disputes to an end. Further, in legal Greek, a mesities was a sponsor, a guarantor or a surety. He put up a bail for a friend who was on trial; he guaranteed a debt or an overdraft. The mesities was someone who was willing to pay a friend's debt to make things right again.”
- William Barclay (1907-1978), Professor of Divinity and Biblical Criticism Glasgow University in Scotland, Letter to the Hebrews, p. 106.
Biblically speaking, Jesus ‘bailed out’ all that faithfully accept his ransom sacrifice. He paid our debt, the debt incurred by sin, with his shed blood. This cannot possibly be applied to a limited group of individuals. Paul’s use of this legal term (when the actual definition is understood) is all-encompassing and should not be limited to a certain elite class of people.
The only reason for maintaing this teaching is so the Governing Body can enforce their claim of authority as the mediator appointed over Christ's belongings that all must support in order to 'be saved'.
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New Jeremiah Book Question
by Ultimate Reality inif anyone has this book, could you please quote or scan whatever section covers jeremiah 25 and the 70 years issue in that chapter?.
some in my family thought that a new jeremiah release would answer my 'questions' about the 70 years interpretation.
now, i am sure they will be happy to hear about this book, thinking that 'jehovah has provided the food at the proper time.
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Ultimate Reality
If anyone has this book, could you please quote or scan whatever section covers Jeremiah 25 and the 70 years issue in that chapter?
Some in my family thought that a new Jeremiah release would answer my 'questions' about the 70 years interpretation. Now, I am sure they will be happy to hear about this book, thinking that 'Jehovah has provided the food at the proper time.' Well, I am anxious to see just what answers are coming from the 'slave'!
Thanks!
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Malawi Congress Party cards
by Marvin Shilmer inunder watchtower doctrine, during the 1960s and 1970s witnesses in the african nation of malawi suffered terrible crimes against them for refusing to purchase malawi congress party cards.
how many participants here have ever viewed a malawi congress party card both inside and outside?.
marvin shilmer.
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Ultimate Reality
Marvin,
Please at least post scans of the documents you have, even if you do not have any commentary ready for them yet. There are some here who would find it most useful in exposing this topic. Thanks.
--UR
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Stayed up all night, see it is a cult now.
by gutted ini really needed to find a place to write this as i don't believe i can talk with anyone else about my account, perhaps it is similar to a lot of yours.. last night for whatever reason i said i would go online and look up information on jws.
i have been raised as a jw all my life and baptized the last few years.
i looked at www.freeminds.org and www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.com and couldn't believe how easily the whole of my lifes teachings were refuted.. i can't stop my brain from running, bs just in regards to theology alone (1914, paradise earth, celebrations etc.
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Ultimate Reality
You've already gotten some good advice on where to start and what to read. Take your time. How you deal with this will depend on your own personal circumstances. You may also find that your emotional stability increases as you re-assess your life and the impact this religion has had on your thinking. Read Hassan's books and Ray Franz's and be prepared to deal with a wide range of emotions. You will get through it, many here already have...you are not alone.
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An analysis of scriptures regarding Jerusalem's servitude to Babylon
by sd-7 inthe issues about this have been beaten to death.
i spent my whole commute to work trying to ponder the scriptures involved, especially remember one of those sites, i think it was jehovahs-judgment.co.uk or something that had this discussion of the scriptures and how all of it supports 607 b.c.e.
i felt ill-equipped to discuss the issues without reading pertinent scriptures myself.
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Ultimate Reality
The jehovahs-judgement site is full of errors in logic, interpretation, and fact. The primary premise on that site, from which the rest is interpreted, is that the beginning of the 70 years MUST start with Jerusalem's destruction based on Jer 25:29 -- where the calamity begins with Jerusalem.
However, calamity is different than destruction of the temple and removal of Zedekiah. More importantly, if you search that verse on the Watchtower Library you will see that the WT interprets the calamity as beginning BEFORE the destruction of the temple.
That alone blows up much of the 'reasoning' on the site. Amazingly, Witnesses will use this site as a means of defending the 607 BCE date without realizing that it actually undermines the Society's interpretation.
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WT 15 march 2010 pag 23
by marcopolo ini have seen who in version italian wt not so as that english...it misses the tower.
do you know why?.
i would like put file photo but not know as do.. can samebody as do?
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Ultimate Reality
FYI - The WT does not have 'digital rights' on some of the images they use in the paper version. These have to be substituted for another image in the digital PDF versions.
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How I obtained my personal files from Bethel
by jwfacts init has taken me a long time, but i have finally put together an article outlining how i used the law to force bethel to send me my personal files.
it is a very long article full of scans, so i have linked to it at http://jwfacts.com/watchtower/experiences/personal-files-privacy-act-1988.php.
in brief, in 2006 i requested that bethel send me my files on the basis that the australian privacy act 1988 entitles people to receive a copy of any information a corporation holds about them.
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Ultimate Reality
Paul, thank you for your effort. You have given a rare glimpse behind the curtain.